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Apr. 13th, 2006 @ 10:57 pm Addition and clarification
We are not removing the ROTC from campus. We are merely removing their status as an official 'club' of the student body. They were and always have been on campus. We have no issues with them being here, we only have an issue with them getting club status. They will not let even straight students join. To join you have to join the military. It is mandated in our school CONSTITUTION if you are a club, you have to let ANYONE join. They violate this both ways.

Plus they asked for NINETY thousand dollars, which would mean we would get nothing, it would suck every penny out of every single other organization under the club system, we already got a warning that we may receive little to NO funding next year.

The reason why we are protesting it, is because if it goes through, then the rule of all students being able to join becomes invalid.

This means there can be official white only clubs, black only, hispanic only, gay only, women only, men only, atheletic only, which is specifically against the spirt of the school constitution. These groups can exist, but they cannot exist within the fouundation area that the ROTC has entered. The ROTC was already recognized as a student affiliated body. Our school sort of has two levels, one which gets more funding. ROTC entered this purely to get more money, because their money from washington has been cut. We don't take issue with this, it is their new assignment as a 'club' to join. All clubs are supposed to be open. ROTC is not.

Also ROTC is not just ODU ROTC. It is NROTC, that is the ROTC of the entire Norfolk region. Furthermore, all official student clubs have to be only for participating students (because the money we get from the government is only allowed to be spent on ODU students). It violates our spending code and would allow the federal government to yank funding of the school if they so chose.

This has very little to do with GLBT issues, almost nothing. It is purely that the GLBT members reacted first, because were the first ones that found the loophole. The entire administrative staff supports our motion and this includes a number of conservative republican vietnam vets.

The greeks on campus cannot get this money because of the same reasoning. They are a club that has rules and means to become a member. Thus they do not have access to these funds. All the frats are watching this VERY closely. If ROTC wins, they will all petition next year and request money to fund themselves.

I have to wonder if I was ranting about some Frat getting money this way if I would be getting the hatemail I have flooding my mailbox.
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From:hgryphon
Date:April 14th, 2006 03:08 am (UTC)
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I don't like only "x" clubs. I feel they should be banned.

ROTC was a class in my high school and "kind of" a sport at my college. But it's an Army program, isn't it? I know my JROTC high school teacher was assigned to the post by the military and drawing a military rather than a teacher's salary... It's not like ROTC wouldn't have funding without the college clubs fund... So, honestly I have no idea why they would even be seeking that...
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From:pathia
Date:April 14th, 2006 03:08 am (UTC)
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That's the point and what has us worried. If they take all that money, every other group is totally hosed.
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From:shadowfox24
Date:April 14th, 2006 03:35 am (UTC)
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I'm sure other student orgs on campus have membership requirements that we're just not hearing about.

Furthermore I find it hard to believe that they're requesting 90K. They don't need 90K. I find it even more difficult to believe that they or ANY student org would get the entire budget. It's just not in the realm of the reasonable or probable. The chances of any student org requesting and getting all the funding seems right up there with the chances of Godzilla attacking Foreman Field. It also seems hard to accept your supposed reason for this stand. While the open membership issue may exist, it's back burner. This is about the military not allowing openly glbt soliders. If it was the Zen Gardening club that had a strict membership prereq, it seems highly unlikly you'd be raising such a stink.

If people are sending you strong dissenting opinions, such is part of taking a stand. If they are sending you profanity laden personal attacks and threats, that's wrong, childish and cowardly. It's the tactic of people lacking the backbone to say things publicly and lacking facts to back up their arguments. *sigh* Now bring on the flames. It's what I get for daring to comment on this.
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From:pathia
Date:April 14th, 2006 03:42 am (UTC)
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I'm sure other student orgs on campus have membership requirements that we're just not hearing about.

No, to be a student organization you can have no membership requirements. All students, no matter what race, religion, sex, gender, sexual preference, no one can be excluded for any reason.

Futhermore, there can be no dues, and everyone that is in the club must be allowed to vote.

Period, or your organization's membership at the school is revoked. If any of these are violated, you are recended membership and funding, period.

Until now.
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From:vt_andros
Date:April 14th, 2006 04:12 am (UTC)
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Doesn't this create other problems? As I recall, universities have to let military recruiters on campus or lose federal funding. Is the ROTC different in this regard?
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From:pathia
Date:April 14th, 2006 04:16 am (UTC)
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Goddamnit, not you too *sigh*

WE ARE NOT REMOVING THEM FROM CAMPUS.
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From:delphshadow
Date:April 14th, 2006 04:12 am (UTC)
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I hate to tell you this, R/R, but your university's position is legally untenable. The courts have consistantly busted universities who try and yank "club" status or funding from organizations that limit their membership logically. An example is a Christian club, funded by the university, who had their funding reinstated by a court after they violated a university policy by mandating that their leadership be exlusively Christian. I can cite cases, should you wish.

Essentially, you are without a leg to stand on if the court system was brought into this. I'd advise that you leave well enough alone lest a higher authority than you step in with a swinging gavel. A club whose purpose is to train civilians in military disciplines (Reserve Officer Training Corp) has the instrinsic right to limit their membership to those who will become officers, as is the purpose of their organization.

Besides... the ROTC is perfectly open, mind you, despite your claims. Anyone can join whatsoever as long as they are willing to abide by the club's rules.
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From:galis
Date:April 14th, 2006 05:35 am (UTC)

As an ROTC Cadet myself...

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I just have this to say.

Why are they trying to get University money anyway?

Our cadet corps is funded entirely either by the general military budget (all US ROTC detachments get a certain amount of money per cadet to spend on training and staff) and cadet fundraising. The latter is significant (I know because I'm in charge of it this semester, what a hectic job too); we contract to the university to do work (various jobs like cleaning, security, military presence at social events like balls, escorts for women at night, that sort of thing). We make a good bit of money if we work hard, more than enough to fund the entire detachment (we've had surpluses in the tens of thousands of dollars before if we worked more than anticipated and spent less).

It doesn't make sense to me. ROTC is job training, not a club; that's how I view it anyway. If they need $90k, something is REALLY wrong... that seems to indicate the staff aren't getting paid, as I really don't see how a single campus could spend that much! Our semester budget for over 120 cadets isn't near that much; are the cadre not getting paid or something, or is this over ten or twelve campuses.

A budget cut from Washington shouldn't affect a single ROTC unit so precisely like that... like I said, detachments get money based on the number of cadets. That rate is what Congress cuts or raises, so the change should be fairly uniform.

Anyhow, I guess that's a lot of musing about how I think there's something a little more wrong than a budget cut.

The only thing that comes to mind that could use that much money are tuition waivers and the like that detachments can give to cadets... but again, those waivers are reimbursed to the college by the various services' training budgets, it's not like they take the money from the college.
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From:slowstorm
Date:April 14th, 2006 06:09 am (UTC)

Re: As an ROTC Cadet myself...

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It's student fee money, so the money can't be used in those ways...
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From:piseag
Date:April 14th, 2006 08:23 pm (UTC)
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*roasts marshmallows*
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From:kemanorel
Date:April 14th, 2006 02:11 pm (UTC)
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The constitution does not apply when you are enlisted into the military.


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From:cerisewolf
Date:April 16th, 2006 05:03 am (UTC)
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UCMJ all the way
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From:oby
Date:April 14th, 2006 02:45 pm (UTC)
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Let's start with the facts, then discuss the issues concerning those.

Could you get a copy of the school's constitution, especially the part mentioning that clubs must allow anyone to join? I would like to see the wording of that entire section to make sure the school covered this. A link to the school's requirements for a club would be best I think.

Do we have anything official from the ROTC that says they will deny membership to a student based upon some criteria? Sexual orientation?

Once we have those, we can discuss and compare the two. If the latter violates the former, then we will need to write out the reasoning and arguments that it does so.

This does not address the issues with the request for $90,000 in funding, but that may be a moot point. Let's start with one thing at a time.
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From:galis
Date:April 14th, 2006 04:46 pm (UTC)
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ROTC does not deny membership except for criminal records of felony level or higher (though you can /sometimes/ get that waved, depending on circumstances), or physical disabilities or conditions that would prevent you from serving in the military (which again you can sometimes get a waiver for if it won't impact your planned career field). However, when you contract (That is, actually sign the enlistment papers, usually between sophomore and junior year), you have to sign a statement that you will not /practice/ same sex relationships. That's the basis of the whole 'don't ask don't tell' policy Clinton instituted; you can be bi or gay in the military as long as you don't tell anyone or practice it. Which pretty much means you can't have any relationships.

It's not that they exclude membership so much as you have to sign documents according you will behave in a certain manner, and breaking those promises will get you removed (which yes, boils down to the same end effect). Most of them are fairly straightforward; ie, no drugs, no felonies, maintain a professional image and set of standards, but the 'don't talk about it or do it' for gay/bi is in there.
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From:azraile
Date:April 14th, 2006 04:38 pm (UTC)
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What in the hell do they need 90 fucking thousand dollars for!?!?!?!?!??!!?!??!!?!?

They going to build themselfs there own fucking building?!?!?!?

Good lord...... I do not see why ANY collage CLUB would need that much money.... O.O
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From:pathia
Date:April 14th, 2006 05:01 pm (UTC)
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state
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From:kk_kitsune
Date:April 17th, 2006 05:40 am (UTC)
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Umm, and WHY do you believe that there should NOT be "white only" clubs, for example? The school constitution aside, if someone wants to start a "jews only" club and a neo-nazi decides to join, I think they should have the right to refuse him.
People define these clubs the way they want to. To say that ANYONE can join ANY of these organisations is sheer idiocy. If your school constitution stands alongside that idiocy, it shares in it.

I agree that this ROTC group sounds like bad news, though. Why would you be receiving hatemail? You're obviously in the right in this case.
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From:pathia
Date:April 17th, 2006 02:45 pm (UTC)
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There's sort of two levels of organizations on our campus. There's organizations, and then there are official organizations. The difference is official organizations can get funding for their activities by the school.

That's why it has to be open to everyone, because you are using money earmarked for this, and the money specifically is written down as being for 'all students'.

There's nothing to say against a club that is exclusive, but you can't request money for it from the university, you have to fund it yourself.