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Apr. 12th, 2006 @ 12:18 pm Tolerance
Christian girl sues to be intolerant.

Myspace coming out leads to expulsion.

These posts might start a flamewar if much discussion starts, just keep civil tongues if you argue/debate.

I believe, in the first link, the girl has a right to say what she wants about her dislike/belief that homosexuality is wrong. However, if you read carefully she looks to wander into the realm of libel and slander with her proclamations that the local GLBT club is a brothel and a 'sex club' and various other fliers/letters.

The second one, I think a private university should be able to do whatever the fuck they want. However, it looks like it's upsetting the campus pretty heavily. I mean, seriously now. Trolling myspace accounts to find gay students? That's pretty...obsessive. Also, the kid was a theater arts major. I'm sorry, but some stereotypes are true. They should just go ahead and expel everyone in that department and dissolve it if they don't want gays at their school! *laugh*


In the end there is a simple question/paradox.

Does 'tolerance' include tolerance of intolerance.
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BushCheney
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From:nikonraccoon
Date:April 12th, 2006 04:41 pm (UTC)
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The second one is a very fuzzy issue. The state of Kentucky doesn't have an non discrimination law. Thus they are within thier rights to discriminate. Is it right? I don't think so... Now if the state was providing them funding, and they did have a non discrimination law, then no, the school wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I suspect that this student is about to get a full scholarship to whatever college he ends up going to, and that this college is going to get alot of protests and lobbying.
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From:vanst
Date:April 12th, 2006 04:44 pm (UTC)
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Why do I have the sudden urge to pick up a chainsaw?
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From:piseag
Date:April 12th, 2006 04:48 pm (UTC)
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I liked the articles you linked and the question you posed. On the level of Christianity and following Christ's example one must let everyone have their agency, love the sinner but not the sin, and then go thy way and sin no more.

So in legal terms, that would allow both homosexual activity and the persecution of it while hoping that people don't attack each other (or that one turns the other cheek if attacked) and ultimately that we can all strive to do better by perfecting ourselves instead of worrying about everyone else's actions/imperfections. (I know that came out sounding like homosexuality=imperfection, but that's not what I meant and I don't know how to rephrase it. Sorry.)

I think it's just wrong to try to impose behavior on other people, whether for "good" or not. People need to be free to make their own choices. That's what this country was founded upon.

Mind you, this only applies to verbal warfare and the like. As soon as anything crosses over into physical attacks, off to jail you go!
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From:kyhwana
Date:April 12th, 2006 11:29 pm (UTC)
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I have always taken issue with the "love the sinner but hate the sin" thing. If you say "love a woman, but hate women" where does that leave you? (Eve did get us all kicked out of the "garden of eden", after all)

How can you love someone if you hate what they are? (ie, the gay)
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From:squnq
Date:April 12th, 2006 04:52 pm (UTC)
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#2: Presumably another student who might have had him added, spotted his declaration on myspace and submitted a printout or somesuch to the school administration. Anonymously, most likely.

My stance on that one is the same as my stance was on California private schools being able to deny gay students entry - it's a private school, so it's their right to do so, in the same way that it's the students' right to take their money to other schools. I don't understand why on earth GLBT students insist on attending these secular colleges and schools for their education.
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From:tracerj
Date:April 12th, 2006 05:00 pm (UTC)
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Does 'tolerance' include tolerance of intolerance.

Nope. I once thought of this as a paradox, but it only appears to be one on the surface. The only way tolerance can be maintained is by eliminating forces of intolerance. That's not intolerance; it's self-defence.

And there are so many places to start....
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From:jonesybunny
Date:April 12th, 2006 05:14 pm (UTC)
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Only in the US of A.
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From:bfdragon
Date:April 12th, 2006 05:19 pm (UTC)
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I believe, in the first link, the girl has a right to say what she wants about her dislike/belief ... if you read carefully she looks to wander into the realm of libel and slander

Agreed on both points.

The second one, I think a private university should be able to do whatever the fuck they want.

This I am not so sure about.. does that mean then that privately owned apartment houses should be able to decide on the basis of race/gender/preference on who they have as tenants? Privately owned restraints should still be allowed to put up whites only signs, and privately owned bus companies should be able to dictate seating arrangements based on class/color? There are no doubt people out there who think that they should, but I will say definitively, no.

School officials said that although the 2003-04 policy did not explicitly mention homosexuality, it did say that students must "conduct themselves, on and off the campus, in a manner which is consistent with the objectives of the College and with its standards of conduct."

I highly doubt (but could be wrong) that they would have taken the same course of action upon receiving a similar post of a boy/girl engaging in sexual activity. They could at least be frank about it, and face the consequences of their decision.

Also, the kid was a theater arts major. I'm sorry, but some stereotypes are true.

While I'm not sure that there are really many, or any, more gays in theater departments than other departments... but, as a technical theater graduate at a Southern California university, I can say they ARE defiantly much more open about it };->
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From:pathia
Date:April 12th, 2006 05:33 pm (UTC)
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This I am not so sure about.. does that mean then that privately owned apartment houses should be able to decide on the basis of race/gender/preference on who they have as tenants? Privately owned restraints should still be allowed to put up whites only signs, and privately owned bus companies should be able to dictate seating arrangements based on class/color? There are no doubt people out there who think that they should, but I will say definitively, no.

The difference to me, is that, in the case of apartments, restaurants and bus companies, those are services for all.

School is a selective process that is intrinsically discriminatory. You go through a discrimination proces in applying to one. It is exclusionary by nature, because the only way it provides more value is my being discriminatory. If they let everyone in, it dillutes the value of their product (education). Grades are discriminatory, if you are less intelligent or study less, then likely you will get a worse one than the kid sitting next to you. It's part of education.
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From:azraile
Date:April 12th, 2006 06:16 pm (UTC)
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What ever happened to christans being kind and loving.....

Just becose you think there doing something wrong don't mean you should treat them like shit.... They are requiring people to be tolorant, not forcing her to eat some one out. She should just chill. She can still try and "help" them... just can't do it by yelling at how there going to hell and are such horable people and call them names and shit like that.

*shakes head and sighs* I would just like to se one christan christan besides my friends mom and drac.... x.x
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From:oby
Date:April 12th, 2006 06:49 pm (UTC)
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I feel that colleges (public or private) should be held to the same non-discrimination laws that other businesses must obey. They have a customer (the student or the sponsors of said student) that pays the college for a service. If the college does not provide that service, then the college is in the wrong.

That does not mean that the college should not have rules or a code of conduct that must be obeyed by the student. But these only cover actions done when in the confines of the college, not on someone's personal MySpace.com site.

An example would be a college banning any sexual activity on campus. They could even ban wearing the color red while on campus. No problem. But the moment they tell one they cannot wear red in public or have sex in my home (if they're attending the college), then that's gone beyond their ability to dictate rules and behavior.
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From:shadowfox24
Date:April 12th, 2006 07:05 pm (UTC)
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By enrolling in the college, the student entered into a fee for services contract. Included in the contract are "terms" set by the university that the consumer must agree to. If the student knowing committed a fraud when entering into that contract then the university is well within it's right to cite that as a breach, thereby nullifying the agreement.
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From:ilthuain
Date:April 12th, 2006 07:12 pm (UTC)
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Does 'tolerance' include tolerance of intolerance.

No.
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From:shadowfox24
Date:April 12th, 2006 07:18 pm (UTC)
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Does 'tolerance' include tolerance of intolerance.

Freedom of speech is a two way street even if the PC movement doesn't want it to be. As a christian, the amount of government enforced intolerance I am subject too is immeasurable. As a caucasian, I'm subjected to intolerance every time a minority comedian takes the stage. As a conservative, I'm subjected to intolerance on almost every college campus in the nation.

The issue at hand here is not tolerance at all, the issue is acceptance. Many want the courts to force acceptance of their lifestyles, beliefs, etc on others. We already tolerate a ton of things. You can be what you want and be able to do so without fear of physical violence or threats. For instance she doesn't have the right to slander via her accusation of them being a "sex club". But no judge on Earth can force other people to not have their own opinions on it. And as much as some of your commentors don't want it to be true, it's unconstitutional to say she can't voice her opinions on alternative lifestyles.
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From:ilthuain
Date:April 12th, 2006 07:32 pm (UTC)
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As a christian, the amount of government enforced intolerance I am subject too is immeasurable.

To think, one day there might be a Christian elected to public office!



(Hint: You are subject to NO government enforced intolerance. That is a myth.)
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From:nviiibrown
Date:April 12th, 2006 09:13 pm (UTC)
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Does 'tolerance' include tolerance of intolerance.

Grammatically, it would seem so. If Tolerance of X is Tolerance than it is indeed Tolerance, even if X = !Tolerance. More to the point, how far does Freedom of Speech protect this girl's intolerance? She's more than welcome to say what she likes, but if she's laying it on the members of the club, it could qualify for harassment, or even slander. When she starts infringing on the rights of others then she's losing ground legally.

As for the school, I agree with the above. It's a bit underhanded, but it's kosher. He's welcome not to go to this school or live in this state in the future.
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From:amberinside
Date:April 12th, 2006 09:22 pm (UTC)
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You know, I don't mind if she's saying all kinds of hateful things...but I want the right to slap her in the face with my glove and call her out for a duel.
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From:kyhwana
Date:April 12th, 2006 11:24 pm (UTC)
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[flameon]Well it's a christian school, what'd he expect![/flameon]

Oh, wait. This just nicely reinforces the idea that christian schools are "intolerant". Or maybe I should say anti-gay/homophobic instead? Is there a difference?

If you're christian and gay, don't bother going to a christian school, 'cause they'll boot your ass out if they find out?